Comments on The House Next Door: Torchwood, Season One, Ep. 8: "They Keep Killing S...

Tosh states in the episode that they tried to inve...

2007-11-18T19:46:00.000-05:00

Tosh states in the episode that they tried to investigate Suzie's past after her suicide, but she had destroyed all the records.

"I'd like to see greater consistency in portraying all the characters. I particularly don't get how Ianto can go from being a blubbering idiot a few episodes ago back to his calm, capable and provocative self here. (Obviously, I like this Ianto a great deal more.)"

Ianto had been carrying a great deal of longterm grief and stress for months. I would find him much less believable if he was his usual self under those circumstances. It's very much to Gareth David-Loyd's credit how subtly he takes Ianto through the stages of the cycle of mourning: denial in Cyberwoman, shock in Small Worlds, anger in Countrycide, despair in GBG, and acceptance in TKKS.

This is the first poster anonymous.. yes, I was re...

2007-11-06T13:19:00.000-05:00

This is the first poster anonymous.. yes, I was referring to the fact that Torchwood was conceived before Doctor Who.

I did in fact LOVE Jack's reappearance on Doctor Who S3. Part of why is a decision they seemed to make about how to handle Jack's immortality, in a way similar to how a similar character was handled in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series.

Hob Gadling was also an ordinary human who was suddenly gifted with immortality and lived many centuries without aging or being killed (although I don't know what a good stabbing would do for him, that was never really detailed). The downside of this was nicely observed, in that every person he knew would age and die, and he could never stay the same place for very long before someone would notice that he never did. He had wives and children and they all aged and died. He lived through terrible periods of history and witnessed awful behavior and humanities disinclination to grow or learn. And yet, near the end of the series, he is given the opportunity to finally die, and see whatever it is that happens next, if anything. He actually declines. In spite of it all, he doesn't want to stop. Because when you get down to it, living is just so *interesting*.

That's why Jack's enthusasm at the end of time tickled me - even after a very long life he's still excited at the possibilities of what's out there, and giddy with the knowledge that if he waits around long enough, he'll get to see it all. He's got time, after all. THAT'S the way to play it, to balance out the emo tragedy part. It makes so much sense for the themes of the Who/Torchood universe to play it out that way, I'm tempted to FedEx RTD a copy of "Men of Good Fortune" just to make sure that he does.

(I know noone's reading this comment thread anymore, but I wanted to throw that out there.)

Ross -I am continually amazed by the little things...

2007-11-01T20:25:00.000-04:00

Ross -

I am continually amazed by the little things you know.

I can't take the credit for it; I hang around fan forums like Outpost Gallifrey, where bloopers like this get spotted almost before the episode finishes airing... :-)

You're right about the last two episodes being a two-parter; I vaguely remember reading somewhere that they started out as quite separate stories, with the links between them being introduced during the writing process. As for Series Two, I wouldn't mind the tone being brought back closer to "Everything Changes", but the biggest problem that needs to be fixed is the inconsistent characterisation. If they can find a way to believably develop the characters from episode to episode (as only happened occasionally in Series One), I'll be happy.

Steven wrote:Never mind that that ISBN mentioned i...

2007-11-01T16:54:04.942-04:00

Steven wrote:

Never mind that that ISBN mentioned is not actually for The Complete Poems of Emily Dickinson, but rather The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations -- obviously what the writers used for their research... :-)

I am continually amazed by the little things you know.

Interesting words from RTD there. I hope TW S2 isn't ~too~ light; I really appreciate its darkness and think that's a big part of what makes the show work. The flawed nature of the characters lends itself to darkness. Also, I'd argue with RTD that the last two episodes of S1 work as a two-parter even if they aren't labeled as such.

Yep, noticed Strong did the Manhattan thing too. I...

2007-10-31T23:34:00.000-04:00

Yep, noticed Strong did the Manhattan thing too. Is why I qualified the praise.

I did like Cyberwoman a lot more than most people here, it seems.

Is this the same Strong what directed Impossible P...

2007-10-31T08:17:00.000-04:00

Is this the same Strong what directed Impossible Planet/Satan Pit?

Yep. Mind you, it's also the same Strong who worked on "Cyberwoman" and the "Daleks in Manhattan" two-parter...
He's also directing this year's Doctor Who Christmas special, and episode 1 of next year's series.

This is one of my favourite episodes of the season, too. I particularly like the long sequence of Gwen and Suzie in the car, with Gwen getting steadily weaker and Suzie stronger. (Although some of this was, I gather, cut in the BBCA broadcast; this episode went seriously over length in its original form -- more than 52 minutes -- and several nice bits were cut, including some more humour with Detective Swanson.)

About the only part that grated was the rather expedient plotting whereby Tosh suddenly gets the idea to use the ISBN number to reverse the lockdown -- and can enter it even with the keyboard not working because "the membrane underneath might just recognise the code"?! Never mind that that ISBN mentioned is not actually for The Complete Poems of Emily Dickinson, but rather The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations -- obviously what the writers used for their research... :-)

Regarding what to expect in the next series, you might be interested in these comments from Russell T Davies in a recent interview in Doctor Who Magazine:

"The key to Series Two is that we've absolutely cracked it with Episode 1 - there's more fun. Everyone worked so hard on Series One, and it was done so fast, and darkness, again, is the thing that you grab hold of when you're working that quickly, cos there's a lot of story in darkness. It became a very dark series. If you watch my first episode, it's got a pterodactyl, and an invisible lift, and a very witty Captain Jack... but we lost some of that, because of the speed of production. However, the first episode of Series Two is rip-roaring. It's the sexiest adventure we've ever done, and Chris Chibnall's finest hour. I know there are certain sections of fandom who'd love us to say, 'We've completely revamped it, and reinvented all of the characters,' but we haven't, actually. We like those five characters, we love that cast, there are still no two-parters in it, we're keeping one-off stories each week, some sad, some lively, but a general sense of fun. Why don't they have more of a laugh? That's the natural thing that falls out of a script when you're working fast."

Favorite episode yet. Always thought the risen mit...

2007-10-31T05:49:00.000-04:00

Favorite episode yet. Always thought the risen mitten (yech) was their best, spookiest gimmick to date. Is this the same Strong what directed Impossible Planet/Satan Pit? Starting to notice him--I think he's good, able to tell multiple lines of action without dissipating the tension too much. provided he's working on a solid script.

I think my biggest problem with TKKS was that it b...

2007-10-31T01:51:24.511-04:00

I think my biggest problem with TKKS was that it begged the question: Why the hell was she hired onto the TW team in the first place?

Exactly! I was thinking this and wanted to get this point into the original write-up, but it got lost somewhere along the way. If you've looked at the Torchwood Institute website, you get an impression that they did a background check on Gwen, and so can assume that they did one on Suzie, and that such background checks would include psychological profiles. But Suzie was so slick that no one ever caught on, until it was way too late. BTW, the Suzie Costello page on that website has two documents that are obviously post-TKKS, and rather well done.

Since I tend to agree with you on what makes a fantastic episode (I can't think of one you've loved that I've not), I hope & expect I'll be able to figure out which is your favorite when I get to it.

Joan wrote:I agree with you on the contrast betwee...

2007-10-30T21:24:02.749-04:00

Joan wrote:

I agree with you on the contrast between S1 Jack and S3 Jack in DW; it's clear he has suffered a lot in the long, intervening years, and it's also clear that his situation scares the shit out of him.

It'll be fascinating to see how the Jack of TW S2 plays out. Of course I hope it's a revelation, but I also understand that responsible showrunners know that there actually ~are~ viewers who don't watch both series. Whatever is done can't rely solely on the drama presented in the last three eps of DW S3. Granted, the events of the last couple eps of TW S1 are pretty cataclysmic and should play into the dynamic of S2 regardless of what went down on WHO. (Oops! I'm getting waaay ahead.)

Having seen it through your eyes, and probably even before your POV, I'd have to count "Countrycide" as TW's finest S1 outing at this point. But like I said, my fave is yet to come. (And Joan, knowing my tastes for as long as you have, hopefully you'll know it when you see it.)

I think my biggest problem with TKKS was that it begged the question: Why the hell was she hired onto the TW team in the first place? I'm wondering if the message here is exactly how ramshackled a team is TW? What's the backstory? How did Jack put it all together? After the events of DW's "Doomsday", perhaps the government was desperate for guidance? There's plenty of time to answer these questions in subsequent seasons. If there's anything that DW's proven, it's that the showrunners have long-term plans and we'd best wait to see what's going down.

I remember my initial reaction to Rose bringing Jack back to life at the end of DW S1 was (from a Rued Morgue entry):

"One thing I’ve always wondered - did Rose bring everyone on the Game Station back to life, or just Captain Jack? It’s hard to believe she was feeling selective at the moment..."

Boy was I wrong. There was something going on there that I never saw coming.

Ross, does it make you feel any better to know tha...

2007-10-30T17:08:46.766-04:00

Ross, does it make you feel any better to know that I've given it the subject a lot of thought myself? I agree with you on the contrast between S1 Jack and S3 Jack in DW; it's clear he has suffered a lot in the long, intervening years, and it's also clear that his situation scares the shit out of him. Most people would hear "you can't die" and say "Yay!" but Jack, like the Doctor, knows what that means: you keep outlasting the people you love, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

I like TW's frequent contemplations of mortality.

If I had to pick a favorite episode of all that have aired to date, it would have to be "Countrycide," which kind of surprises me, but it really did everything right in spite of the bogus premise: it had the characters down, it looked fantastic, the pacing was perfect, and the guest actors were awesome.

TKKS was very good but with so much focus on Suzie, everything and everyone else got pushed to the background. It's a dicey proposition to make such an unappealing character the center of the story, and it worked here, but by the time Jack shot her, I couldn't muster an iota of sympathy. She was completely repellent, and I think that's where the problem lies. She needed to have some redeeming quality, don't you think?

RE: TW Jack Vs. DW JackI think what Anonymous was ...

2007-10-30T16:45:01.908-04:00

RE: TW Jack Vs. DW Jack

I think what Anonymous was referring to was that, IIRC, TW was actually conceived as a project long before there was a new DW, but RTD was unable to get it off the ground. Then, after the success of DW S1, he reenvisioned it as a vehicle for Barrowman/Jack and the project was given the greenlight.

Camera Obscura wrote:

I'm afraid that unlike Jerry Orbach, John has not discovered the dimmer switch that one must use to make the transition from the stage to TV drama.

~That's~ funny.

I think Jack & John have worked better on DW because JB's theatrical acting style is far more suited to the OTT goings-on of DW. Tennant's Doctor would seem ridiculous were he to make an appearance on this show.

But what I think a major triumph was the way Jack was handled at the end of DW S3. From the very beginning of "Utopia", the Doctor seemed to know that Jack was coming in from another series - a series that was most unWholike - and he didn't like it.

If you look closely, the Jack of the final three eps of DW S3 was as far removed from the Jack of DW S1, as TW Jack was removed from the Jack of DW S1. Point being: there's been a pretty decent arc for the character. All that said, the guy does seem to relax a little bit when he's around the Doctor. It's as if Jack hates the responsibility being in charge, but on TW knows that there isn't anybody else with the knowledge to handle it. The way Jack exited the Doctor's company in S3 certainly seemed to indicate that he'll be more at ease with his leadership position in TW S2.

Ain't I quite the geek for having given it this much thought?

Between, DW, TW and the Sarah Jane series, there's been an awful lot going on behing the scenes and its amazing a lot of this stuff has been as good as it is. (Well, I'm still waaay behind on SJ, so I'm not sure about that show.)

S2 of TW has got to be a major improvement, but that's a double-edged statement because aside from the overall incohesiveness of S1 (which Joan has done an exceptional job of pointing out - often times seeing stuff I didn't think about), it's been mostly an engaging ride. My favorite ep of the season still has yet to play on BBCA.

Lastly, this episode was actually not one of my faves of TW S1 and I'm still not sure why, as I can't point to any particular thing that I didn't like about it. I need to see it again, as it's been months since I have.

Like Camera Obscura, I think the multi-show develo...

2007-10-30T12:40:10.232-04:00

Like Camera Obscura, I think the multi-show development of the Captain Jack character has been problematic. The different nature of the two programs -- Dr Who ultimately optimistic and pro-humanity, with Torchwood far more willing to tell us that we're no good, never have been, and never will be -- compounds the difficulties.

I liked this episode very much, it was such a surprise to have Suzie revealed as someone so thoroughly evil, and yet able to fit right into the Torchwood team without any of them suspecting a thing. I think the Suzie/Gwen evil/good dichotomy was a bit too finely drawn, because we've seen Gwen do a number of questionable things herself, but for the purposes of this episode, it worked.

I'd like to see greater consistency in portraying all the characters. I particularly don't get how Ianto can go from being a blubbering idiot a few episodes ago back to his calm, capable and provocative self here. (Obviously, I like this Ianto a great deal more.) I'd also like the show runners to get their story straight: is Torchwood a secret or not? Gwen had never heard of it before the pilot, and she was no rookie. The show could benefit from some consistent top-down management.

That said, there's tremendous potential here. The regular cast is very appealing, and there's an infinite number of stories waiting to be spun off whatever the writers envision washing up from the Rift. I think the shorter seasons make us much less forgiving, also -- if this were an American series with a 22-episode run, I'd be a lot more tolerant of the occasional WTF episode. We're only getting a bit more than half that number each season, though, so there's basically no margin for error.

I'm afraid that unlike Jerry Orbach, John has not ...

2007-10-29T14:31:00.000-04:00

I'm afraid that unlike Jerry Orbach, John has not discovered the dimmer switch that one must use to make the transition from the stage to TV drama. Of course, it may just be his IRL larger-than-life personality... He seems to handle the reality / game show stuff just fine. Enjoy it, even.

Word from RLD was that Torchwood was written for Barrowman, so unless Uncle Rusty's feeding us (his usual) palaver, it's just that they've chosen to make Capt. Jack so very emo for TW. Remember that for the UK airing, the first season of Torchwood fell between seasons two and three of Doctor Who. Jack had been abandoned on the TV satellite by the Doctor as "wrong" at the end of New Who season one; he's had to make his way back to Earth, ended up showing up well over a century too early, discovered he can't die, and had to live through countless wars and deaths while making his way to the Cardiff Rift and waiting for the Doctor to show up to refuel. All this has made him a might tetchy. Hope among fan-kind is that the DW season three season-ending has cleared up some of his issues and we can get a little more fun-Jack on season two of TW.

This is really the only episode of Season One that...

2007-10-29T13:33:00.000-04:00

This is really the only episode of Season One that showed promise, to me. Of course, it's a drawback that the most interesting character was killed off in Episode One and killed again here - her petulant and diabolical nature is much more interesting (and spooky!) than the rubber-masked aliens and CGI spirits. I LOVE that she had an "In Case of Death" plan. Love it. That and the Resurrection Glove are the good ideas from this season and fingers crossed that they go with that direction from the dozen other ones they tried.

Finally, while I'm complaining, I wish they had just used an entirely different character for the head of Torchwood, rather than plugging Jack into the role. He was so engaging and FUN on Doctor Who, and so lifeless (pun intended) on Torchwood. You can tell it was originally envisioned as a different character altogether and the merged Jack/Torchwood character does. not. work. Even more obvious when he pops up again on Doctor Who and is interesting again, though still saddled with that immortality/angst-generator business that will give them many more episodes of sad rooftop gazing to come. I'm just not going to make it through another season of this, I'm afraid.