The House Next Door

Have you read Kevin Smith's writeup about Joel Siegel storming out of a Clerks II screening after 40 minutes? It's pretty funny. It can be found here.

I enjoyed Clerks o.k., and I thought Chasing Amy was pretty good, but Mallrats, Dogma, and that Jay and Silent Bob thing were some of the most wretched, abysmal films I've ever seen. Smith pretty much sucks because it feels like he's not even trying, but then there's no point coming down on him hard ...because he's not even trying. That said, I like him and I bet he is fun to bullshit with. I find his talk during interviews much more entertaining than his movies.

I regret that i was careless with that comment. I shouldn't have said that Kevin Smith sucked, but that those movies sucked because it felt like he wasn't really trying. Yeah, that's it.

Those Joel Siegel puns are so amazingly bad they make me laugh in sheer disbelief.

Pretty much with wagstaff on this. Kevin Smith writes some pretty good dialogue, but as a filmmaker, he's just brutal. It's not that he's untrained and inept that bugs me, but rather that he's untrained, inept and somehow perversely proud of it.

That said, Joel Seigel is most certainly a putz.

Yeah, I share Wagstaff and Dan's frustrations with Smith. But really it's just the last three films that have been the deal-breakers for me.

When CLERKS was over, I remember walking out of the Angelika on a cloud. It was just such an amazing rush of identification - seeing guys who talked and behaved like me and my suburban screw-off friends in a movie - and at an arthouse theater no less!

Heck, I'll even stick up for DOGMA, which is admittedly abysmally made and has a few very spotty performances (why give Salma Hayek all the important exposition?), but I felt like Smith was wrestling with some really personal and interesting ideas there - trying to make something that's both devout and obscene at the same time. (It also covered The Da Vinci Code's territory in much more entertaning fashion, if you ask me.)

But JAY AND SILENT BOB STRIKE BACK was one of the most depressing movies I've ever seen. I felt like I'd attended a circle-jerk.

I don't get that sense of honesty anymore from his pictures - they've become increasingly broad and cartoony (or in the case of JERSEY GIRL, just pre-fab and phony.)

I feel like Smith really needs to push himself beyond this ViewAskew-niverse and try making movies for folks outside his hard-core fan-base. (Once I saw the Mooby's restaraunt in CLERKS II, I knew it was doomed.)

As a friend of mine recently said of Quentin Tarantino: "I'm not going to another one of his movies until he writes about someone who doesn't have the same record collection as he does."

Ditto to Wagstaff and Dan. I know several people who feel quite a bit of hostility towards Smith. I think I know why, but I just can't work myself up to that level of passion. Clerks was so-so and Chasing Amy was slightly less so. I never bothered with Dogma or Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Jay is funny in very short doses - just long enough to pass him in the 7/11 parking lot to buy a drink and then leave. If the two are supposed to be Generation X icons, they are pretty weak.

Incidentally, while Smith may have enjoyed a perverse pleasure with Siegel's exit, I doubt he'll get anything pleasant out of your (Sean's) tepid response to his movie.

To end on a positive note, though, I admire his online connection to his audience. Though Tarantino and Rodriguez are better filmakers, in my opinion, they'd do well to follow Smith's lead in freely sparring and discussing with their audience (of course, I'm not even sure they don't - just going by his comments.)

Man - I d/led the clip of Kevin on the radio with Siegel and I'm convinced of one thing: Smith has taken this incident and is using it simply to drum up interest in the film. Maybe he thinks it's gonna tank? Maybe he's got no confidence in the piece? I dunno. He sure as shit isn't interested in talking about filmmaking though.

He goes on and on and says the same thing over and over to Siegel and after Siegel apologizes and says he'll never do it again, Smith just keeps harpin' and harpin' on the same goddamn thing! (That last bit's a vague quote from VAMPIRE'S KISS).

It's admittedly pretty funny that Joel doesn't even realize he's talking to Kevin for the the first 8 or so minutes, but the whole thing got stale real fast. Even the commentary on Kevin's page says basically the same thing. It's an insanely petty accusation all things considered and not worth all the fuss.

Oddly, I'll fly in the face of everyone else in this talkback and say that of his films that I've seen (which is all of 'em but DOGMA & JERSEY GIRL), the only one I didn't care for too much was CHASING AMY. Heck, I even get a huge kick out of MALLRATS.

I enjoyed the original Clerks, really disliked Mallrats, loved Chasing Amy, thought Dogma had some good ideas but didn't work and that Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back was mildly enjoyable for what it was -- one long inside joke for Smith's fans. Does he have many strengths as a filmmaker? No, but as a writer he produces a lot of really funny bits. To me, his greatest misfire was Jersey Girl, which has failed to get a mention here yet.

I liked Chasing Amy a lot, enjoyed Dogma but didn't love it, never saw Mallrats and have no memory of Jay and Silent Bob, although I'm almost certain I did see it. I liked Clerks well enough, but never understand why the abysmal acting in that movie gets such a pass. The leads were just unnatural as hell and came across like the kind of bad, overly inicative actors you see in local high school productions.

I'm curious if Matt still has access to his review of Mallrats. I never read it, but it prompted Smith to thank him in the credits of Chasing Amy for it.

" But JAY AND SILENT BOB STRIKE BACK was one of the most depressing movies I've ever seen. I felt like I'd attended a circle-jerk. "

sean, profoundly bleak. I get that feeling from the few movies i've seen of his..i think the guy is stuck.

he just seems like someone who jacks off in the urinal next to you while complaining about his shitty job.

Ross, I listened to the clip as well and found it very dispiriting. I'm surprised Kevin posted it so proudly on his website because I don't think he comes off particularly well at all.

I really started feeling bad for Joel Siegel -- he was gutsy enough to take the call, and they all just pig-piled on him and repeated themselves for twenty full minutes.

(Of course, then again it is just more of the usual frat-boy bullying that's made me loathe O&A ever since they were still spinning platters in Boston fifteen years ago.)

As far as these kind of radio confrontations go, this one was hardly Gallo vs. Ebert on The Howard Stern Show. Or Schneider vs. Ebert on Stern. Or even Siskel vs. Ebert on Stern!

That - combined with all the weird stories that broke yesterday about Kevin banning certain critics from screenings of his movies, and his constant presence on Jeff Wells' site all day, contradicting himself and just digging the hole deeper...

Man, if you had told me that there was one director who was going to have a public meltdown before his latest crummy movie opened this Friday - I would have put my money on Shyamalan!

I think maybe we just need Matt to write another review that will get this guy back on the right track. How bout it, Seitz?

Hey, guys--Sean particularly--I haven't seen the new movie yet because I'm occupied with family stuff. But I'll give it a look-see and weigh in. I don't think Smith would mind that. The only movie of his that I didn't pan was "Chasing Amy" -- which you can take with a grain of salt considering the anecdote mentioned above -- yet every time I saw the guy after that, he was a complete gentleman and never held my often brutal words against me. When I ran into him at TCA Press Tour after publishing my "Dogma" review, which basically said the guy had no visual sense and should probably not direct his own work, fantasies especially, he said, "Well, you're a critic, man. If you didn't tear me a new one you wouldn't be doing your job. And I gotta be honest, what you saw up there onscreen is about as good as it's gonna get."

Yeah, he's probably trapped inside a kind of bubble, and he's nowhere near as interesting a director as he is a writer, but the guy's a grownup and a mensch who seems genuinely open to lots of different kinds of movies. So I wouldn't write him off just yet.

Plus, critic Alonso Duralde swears that the two hour, 45 minute director cut of "Jersey Girl" (cut by an hour due to studio mandate) is actually a really sweet, rich, Hollywood melodrama, with some finely observed moments between a husband and the various women in his life. I'm intrigued.

Matt wrote:

he said, "Well, you're a critic, man. If you didn't tear me a new one you wouldn't be doing your job. And I gotta be honest, what you saw up there onscreen is about as good as it's gonna get."

Good thing you never talked during one of his movies though. ;-)

Yeah, he's probably trapped inside a kind of bubble, and he's nowhere near as interesting a director as he is a writer, but the guy's a grownup and a mensch who seems genuinely open to lots of different kinds of movies. So I wouldn't write him off just yet.

I'll cut Smith - and many other filmmakers of his "generation" [or whatever you wanna call it - technically Matt, you and I fall into that same bracket, we just don't have cult followings...um, well, I don't anyway] simply because they largely seem to get to make the movies they wanna make, and I've always got enormous respect for that kind of clout, esp when it's someone like Smith who plays to a very specific audience. Navigating ones way through the abyss that is the studio system takes some intelligence.

His movies are often juvenile, but there are always going to be teenagers out there wanting to see movies with fart, dick and pussy jokes. Eventually they'll grow out of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean Smith has to as long as he cultivates new fans.

What Jeffrey Hill mentioned above about his continued interaction with his fansbase - THAT's how you do it in this day and age. Let your fanbase know that they're appreciated and that they've got a voice and you'll listen. Let them know you're a geek like they are and that you're not going to just surf into some website set up by strangers and browse & post anonymously. I've seen Kevin involve himself in AICN talkbacks! Talk about brave. I bet his online presence has done more to guarantee his audience than anything else he's done.

Plus, critic Alonso Duralde swears that the two hour, 45 minute director cut of "Jersey Girl"

Good lord! What Kevin Smith storyline could possibly justify that kind of running time?

One would think he'd get bored and want to try something a little different (which I suppose is what the two movies of his I haven't even seen are attempts at doing - right?) I wonder what sort of films Kevin Smith will be making 20 years from now? Will I ever get around to seeing DOGMA? Will I bother with CLERKS 2? Is he really writing AQUAMAN 2?

These questions and many others will not be answered on the next episode of SOAP, because it was canceled like 20 years ago.

Since this is a STAR WARS joke, it isn't entirely inappropriate to this talkback; I guess it's been around for a bit, but I just saw it for the first time today.

What happens when Darth Vader suffers a nervous breakdown?

It's called "Vader Sessions" and I've got it up at the Morgue. Haven't laughed that hard at a SW joke in a good long while.

Ross, that clip is about three times longer than it needs to be --and somehow I feel like that becomes part of the joke after awhile. I seriously dunno what was funnier - dialogue from SOUL MAN during the lightsaber duel, or Vader chilling to "Piano Man" in the Death Star canyons.

Matty - of course I am sitting here dying to read your review. (That's why I'm unsubtly laying on the pressure... on your own blog, no less! How's that for a House-guest who comes in, won't leave, and tracks mud in all over the fucking floor?)

But yeah, I tried to get across in my piece what an awesome dude Smith is to bullshit around with, he's really one of the most genuine, fun guys I've ever talked to at this gig.

But speaking as a former die-hard fan (yeah - I saw MALLRATS twice in the theater, so sue me) I'm genuinely concerned about how stagnant he seems to have become, and yesterday's radio-show bullying and those Movie City News "Kevin Smith's War On Critics" stories just didn't jibe with the down-to-Earth dude I used to sell LaserDiscs to back in the 90's when I worked at NYC's Tower Video.

So, snarky as I might come off, my concern is indeed genuine and does come from somewhere good. This dude's work used to mean a lot to me - and I must reiterate that the first time I saw CLERKS was one of those special moviegoing experiences I will always hold dear - so it pains me to see him "pulling a Shyamalan" as of late.

As opposed to when Shyamalan "pulls a Shyamalan," and then I just laugh and laugh and laugh!

Sean wrote:

Ross, that clip is about three times longer than it needs to be --and somehow I feel like that becomes part of the joke after awhile.

Yeah, it does go on. Normally I'd hit the stop button on something like that 3 minutes in, but I got totally drawn into it, and have in fact gone back and watched it several times now.

I love how in the end he succumbs to the uber-squareness of Billy Joel. I think my favorite scene is the bit with Leia and the torture globe (or whatever that thing was). It cracked me up because even as kid that scene had some weirdly sexual overtones.

just didn't jibe with the down-to-Earth dude I used to sell LaserDiscs to back in the 90's when I worked at NYC's Tower Video.

I didn't know that about you. I, too, spent the early to mid-90s selling (and even renting) the mighty silver platters and I've still got a closet full 'em. That was back when being a movie geek seemed much less common. DVDs killed it for all of us. No regrets here, though.

(I also posted a lengthy Kevin-centric reply here that never showed up - hopefully I did not say something offensive in it; and if so, apologies.)

CLERKS was a staple of high school. So much so that it inevitably got a harsh backlash from me in the face of my devoted friends. But, a few years ago, I re-watched one of those DVD re-releases and remembered why I loved it to begin with: his dialogue, while somewhat idiotic, is a perfect reflection of us urbane suburbanites. Also, once I'd had a gf for a while, other aspects came into finer focus.

After that, tho, I could give a shit. CHASING AMY is embarassing to think about and despite Will Farrell JAY/SILENTBOB is pretty abominable, if diverting.

I think it's no wonder why he and Tarantino and Rodriguez are all buddies (they're all drawn to trashy pop culture) but I think QT is the only truly good filmmaker. However, I saw KILL BILL as a big regression, you know? JACKIE BROWN was so mature and observed and then he just sat back and didn't edit himself at all and over indulged everything. I find myself rooting for KILL BILL--and am often really entertained--but in the end it just feels too phony to be taken seriously. But maybe he didn't want to be taken seriously. Basically: it was a let down.

As for Rodriguez, what the fuck ever. SIN CITY can go straight to hell. I never liked him. Props for funding EL MARIACHI but that movie is a joke, much like its sequels.

The main reason I think I'll still watch Kevin Smith movies is because of this approachability he projects. Did you guys see that video of him telling the story about his SUPERMAN LIVES screenplay? He sure can tell a story. Maybe he should just do standup routines...

Ross sez: (I also posted a lengthy Kevin-centric reply here that never showed up - hopefully I did not say something offensive in it; and if so, apologies.)

Nope, never saw it. Try it again and we'll run it. Blogger is screwy sometimes.

ryland-good video and you're right, he's a very good story teller on stage. I wish the dialogue in his movies were as unselfconscious and natural.

Ryland: However, I saw KILL BILL as a big regression, you know? JACKIE BROWN was so mature and observed and then he just sat back and didn't edit himself at all and over indulged everything.

Amen, brother.

I love JACKIE BROWN dearly and at the time I remember thinking it was the beginning of a new stage in QT's career, one where he'd put the guns away and focus on what I believe is his true gift - chroniciling the idiosyncracies of human behavior.

The second KILL BILL film had a lot more humanity than the (awful) first, and I really liked it at the time. But now that this thing has basically become "one film" thanks to home video, I can't really seperate them anymore and just resent the whole endeavor for being such an over-indulgent, undisciplined wank.

I think QT ran into a lot of the same problems as Smith has recently, playing to the base and disappearing into his own cult. Maybe we should call it "The Fanboy Curse?"

RWK: As for Rodriguez, what the fuck ever.

Exactly. And this is coming from someone who really dug SIN CITY. But everything else? Jesus.

Sean:

Pretty sure JACKIE BROWN is the best QT's done so far. Not as definitive as PULP FICTION but in terms of pure filmmaking it's at least a 9. A favorite for all time. Last fall I was dragged around Target by my gf and saw a double pack of JB & PF for 12.99 and swooped. It was totally worth it and validated my opinion that JB is so great. Also, Robert Forster kicks John Travolta's butt.

MZS wrote:

Nope, never saw it. Try it again and we'll run it. Blogger is screwy sometimes.

It's there now, before the Vader post, long and rambling as it may be.

You're right - Blogger *is* often very screwy.

That youtube clip entertained me much more than any of Smith's films.

Neil Gaiman was talking once in his blog about a movie exec with an obsession with giant spiders, who'd commissioned a completely shitty Sandman script that had him fighting a giant spider. And now I know who he was talking about. Pity I can't find the entry; Gaiman knows how to tell a good anecdote.

I've always loved Kevin Smith because he speaks directly to my inner 12-year-old, who often doesn't get the attention he deserves .. and I've always hated Joel Siegel because he condescends to my inner infant

I found the Opie & Anthony clip very entertaining... poor useless Joel Seigel was completely outgunned.

"Joel, we'd like you to resign." - I have to admit, I found this line hysterical

Even if you don't like Smith's films, you have to appreciate the inspiration they have been to young aspiring suburban film makers. He's not Kurosawa or Ingmar Bergman, nor does he claim to be anywhere near their artistic level. For the most part, he makes the movies that he wants to make, and even his most critical haters have to respect that.

Smith's candor, accessibility and honesty have allowed him to win over a lot of fans. I for one, consider paying to see a Kevin Smith film to be on par with paying to see a film that a friend made. Sure, it won't be a perfect film. This or that will be a little forced and over-the-top. But what the hell, its my buddy Kevin's movie.

House contributor Alan Sepinwall's review of Clerks II can be read on his blog, "What's Alan Watching?"

I'm going to see Clerks II soon, glad to see Mr. Smith is still at it.

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